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From: I@no.self (!)
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Subject: Zen Christianity (was Re: Reconstituting Zen ...)
Date: 2 Jul 1997 23:25:23 -0700
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Michael:
#>#>#> But how could we be Jesus if we think Jesus is a God? 

I@no.self (!):
#>emptying Christianity....

#>...purpose.... discussing zen christianity, 

#>#Certainly there is potential.  But to build up another
#>#system... do we really need that?
#>
#>is Christianity empty?  do we need or want it to be empty?

kmccor@mindspring.com (karen):
#What would you empty it of?

you implied it yourself, everything not essential.  then begin to add only
 that which is necessary.  example: devoid of history is 'Christianity'
 meaningful?  Buddhism can be, though it hangs on the corpse of Gautama
 for an inspired premise.  say the story of Jesus the Christ was an
 example of or formula for an experience.  perhaps even Jesus could be
 tossed out!  'Christianity' becomes the marching Messiahs (Kristoi)
 bravely communicating the Word of God through the glory of their deeds!

the real challenge is how or why to make of this *zen* christianity.  
 could Gautama be said to have contemplated buddha-nature?  if so, then 
 (based on recent correlation of Anabaptist/Quaker ideas with Ch'an/Zen)
 perhaps the zen christian firmly fixes hir attentions upon the Logos 
 (Word of God), that being hir 'real self' as an expression

but look, we enter into metaphysics quickly.  'Logos'?  'buddha-nature'?
 this will quickly become a source of distraction from the mystery.  how
 simple can we make it?  what is the extent of the concept of 'Messiah'?
 where does this become 'Christian'?  how central need be Jesus to this?

referring to St. Teresa's description of Christ coming through bodies 
 and manipulating them:
#>#>jesus meat-puppets.  isn't Teresa an orgasmic corpse?

#>'Ecstasy of St. Teresa'

#Yes, and Meat Puppets are an alternative rock group.

aye, as well as a dismissive characterization of the notion of
 'incarnation' (metempsychosis or the transmigration of souls)

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From: Redbeard <redbeard@notcom.com.mu>
Newsgroups: alt.philosophy.zen,alt.zen,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.religion.buddhism,talk.religion.buddhism,talk.religion.misc,alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Zen Christianity (was Re: Reconstituting Zen ...)
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 12:57:46 -0600
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! wrote:
<stuff clipped to save space>
> the real challenge is how or why to make of this *zen* christianity.
>  could Gautama be said to have contemplated buddha-nature?  if so, then=

>  (based on recent correlation of Anabaptist/Quaker ideas with Ch'an/Zen=
)
>  perhaps the zen christian firmly fixes hir attentions upon the Logos
>  (Word of God), that being hir 'real self' as an expression
> =

> but look, we enter into metaphysics quickly.  'Logos'?  'buddha-nature'=
?
>  this will quickly become a source of distraction from the mystery.  ho=
w
>  simple can we make it?  what is the extent of the concept of 'Messiah'=
?
>  where does this become 'Christian'?  how central need be Jesus to this=
?
>

A couple of good books on the subject are =91Zen and the Birds of
Appetite"
by Thomas Merton and "Zen Catholicism" by Dom Aelred Graham. =



Cheers,

Redbeard

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From: I@no.self (!)
Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.zen,talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Zen Christianity (was Re: Reconstituting Zen ...)
Date: 8 Jul 1997 21:15:25 -0700
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virtualoso@#halcyon.com (Virtualoso):
# Try:
# "salvation" equals "enlightened"

yes

# "Christ" equals "Buddha Nature"

almost.  Christ/Kristos/Messiah = Buddha/Awakened One
         Logos/Word of God      = Buddha-Nature

# There is no "spiritual force" or "force of nature" or "deity". Because
# there's nothing "else". Remember: God is ALL.

as is the Buddha

# Jesus WAS the "Christ"... and so are we all, whether we realize it or not.

and Gautama WAS the Buddha, etc.

# Nice and tidy, eh? Simple.

a fine start

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From: Julius <Julius.vonMakanec@munich.netsurf.de>
Newsgroups: alt.philosophy.zen,alt.zen,alt.religion.buddhism,talk.religion.buddhism,talk.religion.misc,alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Zen Christianity (was Re: Reconstituting Zen ...)
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 00:48:51 +0200
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Joshua Jasper wrote:
> 
> In article <5pfgkj$m72@kudo20.kudonet.com>,
> ! <nagasiva@yronwode.com> wrote:
> >Michael:
> >#>#>#> But how could we be Jesus if we think Jesus is a God?
> >
> >I@no.self (!):
> >#>emptying Christianity....

well, maybe include tantra - read 'Deity Yoga' by HH Dalai Lama.
You become one with the visualised god (in this case Jesus =
Avalokiteshvara) in emptiness of 'self'.

> >#>...purpose.... discussing zen christianity,

(snip)

Buddhism can be, though it hangs on the corpse of Gautama
> > for an inspired premise.  say the story of Jesus the Christ was an
> > example of or formula for an experience.  perhaps even Jesus could be
> > tossed out!  'Christianity' becomes the marching Messiahs (Kristoi)
> > bravely communicating the Word of God through the glory of their deeds!

In Buddhism, you have many other enlightened heroes, like Padmasambhava,
Dogen, Bodhidharma, Kukai, Milarepa, etc. 


(snip)

>         Here's the problem I see with Buddhism mixing effectivley with
> Christianity: The concept of salvation, and the need for christ to remove
> our sins and to save us. I just don't see how rhis can be worked out.
> Unless Christ is _only_ a concept, and not a spiritual force (God) who
> does these things, it just dosn't seem to work.

Try Vajrasattva purification practices, from traditional preliminary
practices in tibetan buddhism?

>         The idea of the 'Logos' fits in reasonably well, but if you go on
> with this, it seems like you deny the actual existance of the diety, and
> translate him into a force of nature, and not a sentient being.

It is both, in emptiness - it is an archetype, and your mind.