Path: Supernews69!kudonet.com!not-for-mail From: I@no.self (!) Newsgroups: alt.philosophy.zen,alt.zen,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.religion.buddhism,talk.religion.buddhism,talk.religion.misc,alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian Subject: Zen Christianity (was Re: Reconstituting Zen ...) Date: 2 Jul 1997 23:25:23 -0700 Organization: KudoNet On-Line Services Lines: 45 Sender: tyagi@bjt.net Message-ID: <5pfgkj$m72@kudo20.kudonet.com> References: <5p9bai$e52@kudo20.kudonet.com> <33d14162.14576399@news.mindspring.com> <199707022026.NAA01328@kudo20.kudonet.com> <33becb3e.29192887@news.mindspring.com> Reply-To: nagasiva@yronwode.com (!) NNTP-Posting-Host: 165.227.52.9 X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 (NOV) Xref: Supernews69 alt.philosophy.zen:15745 alt.zen:66130 alt.magick.tyagi:13392 alt.religion.buddhism:1031 talk.religion.buddhism:37961 talk.religion.misc:301618 alt.christnet:268608 alt.religion.christian:237458 Michael: #>#>#> But how could we be Jesus if we think Jesus is a God? I@no.self (!): #>emptying Christianity.... #>...purpose.... discussing zen christianity, #>#Certainly there is potential. But to build up another #>#system... do we really need that? #> #>is Christianity empty? do we need or want it to be empty? kmccor@mindspring.com (karen): #What would you empty it of? you implied it yourself, everything not essential. then begin to add only that which is necessary. example: devoid of history is 'Christianity' meaningful? Buddhism can be, though it hangs on the corpse of Gautama for an inspired premise. say the story of Jesus the Christ was an example of or formula for an experience. perhaps even Jesus could be tossed out! 'Christianity' becomes the marching Messiahs (Kristoi) bravely communicating the Word of God through the glory of their deeds! the real challenge is how or why to make of this *zen* christianity. could Gautama be said to have contemplated buddha-nature? if so, then (based on recent correlation of Anabaptist/Quaker ideas with Ch'an/Zen) perhaps the zen christian firmly fixes hir attentions upon the Logos (Word of God), that being hir 'real self' as an expression but look, we enter into metaphysics quickly. 'Logos'? 'buddha-nature'? this will quickly become a source of distraction from the mystery. how simple can we make it? what is the extent of the concept of 'Messiah'? where does this become 'Christian'? how central need be Jesus to this? referring to St. Teresa's description of Christ coming through bodies and manipulating them: #>#>jesus meat-puppets. isn't Teresa an orgasmic corpse? #>'Ecstasy of St. Teresa' #Yes, and Meat Puppets are an alternative rock group. aye, as well as a dismissive characterization of the notion of 'incarnation' (metempsychosis or the transmigration of souls) Path: Supernews69!supernews.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!europa.clark.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!gatech!purdue!yuma!csn!nntp-xfer-2.csn.net!news-2.csn.net!not-for-mail From: Redbeard Newsgroups: alt.philosophy.zen,alt.zen,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.religion.buddhism,talk.religion.buddhism,talk.religion.misc,alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian Subject: Re: Zen Christianity (was Re: Reconstituting Zen ...) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 12:57:46 -0600 Organization: None Lines: 30 Message-ID: <33BBF62A.2A9A@notcom.com.mu> References: <5p9bai$e52@kudo20.kudonet.com> <33d14162.14576399@news.mindspring.com> <199707022026.NAA01328@kudo20.kudonet.com> <33becb3e.29192887@news.mindspring.com> <5pfgkj$m72@kudo20.kudonet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.133.85.130 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: Supernews69 alt.philosophy.zen:15765 alt.zen:66204 alt.magick.tyagi:13414 alt.religion.buddhism:1045 talk.religion.buddhism:37989 talk.religion.misc:301755 alt.christnet:268853 alt.religion.christian:237717 ! wrote: > the real challenge is how or why to make of this *zen* christianity. > could Gautama be said to have contemplated buddha-nature? if so, then= > (based on recent correlation of Anabaptist/Quaker ideas with Ch'an/Zen= ) > perhaps the zen christian firmly fixes hir attentions upon the Logos > (Word of God), that being hir 'real self' as an expression > = > but look, we enter into metaphysics quickly. 'Logos'? 'buddha-nature'= ? > this will quickly become a source of distraction from the mystery. ho= w > simple can we make it? what is the extent of the concept of 'Messiah'= ? > where does this become 'Christian'? how central need be Jesus to this= ? > A couple of good books on the subject are =91Zen and the Birds of Appetite" by Thomas Merton and "Zen Catholicism" by Dom Aelred Graham. = Cheers, Redbeard