Path: shell.portal.com!svc.portal.com!sdd.hp.com!caen!kuhub.cc.ukans.edu!lark.cc.ukans.edu!rrosen
Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,alt.magick.order,alt.pagan.magick,alt.magick.tantra
Subject: Re: High versus Low Magic(k)
Message-ID: <1996Jun30.143533.121959@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu>
From: rrosen@lark.cc.ukans.edu (Goddess in Training)
Date: 30 Jun 96 14:35:33 CDT
Followup-To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,alt.magick.order,alt.pagan.magick,alt.magick.tantra
References: <4pkin7$r31@dns.ktb.net> <31CCCB94.1EEE@concentric.net> <wizard-2806962209140001@ip168.lax.primenet.com>
Nntp-Posting-Host: lark.cc.ukans.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Lines: 49
Xref: shell.portal.com alt.magick.tyagi:9130 alt.magick:78053 alt.magick.order:1538 alt.pagan.magick:888 alt.magick.tantra:2164

Wizard (wizard@primenet.com) wrote:
: In article <1996Jun28.200312.121896@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu>,
: rrosen@lark.cc.ukans.edu (Goddess in Training) wrote:

: >Well, ceremonial magick (in its *roots* at least, not necessarily in its 
: >current forms) is patriarchal and hierarchical, but then so is Wicca;> 
: >--'--,-{@  --,--'-{@  --'--,-{@                                             
: >Renee Rosen                                   
: >rrosen@lark.cc.ukans.edu               
: >Goddess in Training                        

: Renee, as a "Goddess in Training," don't you think you should do something
: like supporting your statements with some sort of evidence?

Well, first off, notice the winkey--that statement wasn't meant as 
totally serious. But, for those who are humorously challenged, I'll 
attempt to explain.

Note I said roots, and not current practice. Modern ceremonial magick has
the majority of its roots in hermetic and Kabbalistic practices, which
were melded with Freemasonry (not necessarily in the *practices*, but in
the structures of their organizations). Most of the early practioners of
CM were male--hence, the "patriarchal." Most CM lodges are
hierarchical--hence, the hierarchical reference. 

As for Wicca, it was invented within this century from the same sets of 
traditions as Ceremonial Magick. Gardner was a Co-Mason. He drew from the 
same hermetic and Kabbalistic imagery. Also, his conception of the God 
and Goddess has more to do with hermetic traditions (the union of the 
male and female principles, for instance), than with any ancient pagan 
religion. As for the "patriarchal" part, again, we have a tradition 
founded by a man, with many (but not all) of its early participants being 
male. Also, Graves was a big source for early Wiccan thealogy, and he's 
definitely sexist and patriarchal (along with being incredibly 
heterosexist, but that's another thread). The conception of the Goddess 
in *early* Wicca is incredibly patriarchal, IMHO. And Gardnerian Wicca is 
certainly at least as hierarchical as CM, if not more so.

Of course, none of this historical background has anything to do with 
whether modern CM or Wicca is patriarchal or hierarchical, merely that 
both movements share similar, and in some cases, the same roots, and that 
the accusation of patriarchal and/or hierarchal could be applied to both. 
--'--,-{@  --,--'-{@  --'--,-{@                                             
Renee Rosen                   		      
rrosen@lark.cc.ukans.edu                "Was I a witch?
Goddess in Training                            In the dark days, I heard 
Astrud and Astarte on irc      		                      voices . . ."
http://lark.cc.ukans.edu/~rrosen                       	--Art Bears
					       @}-,--'--  @}-'--,--  @}-,--'--