From thelema93-l-owner@hollyfeld.org Fri Sep 20 11:32:31 1996 Received: from nova.unix.portal.com (nova.unix.portal.com [156.151.1.101]) by jobe.shell.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) with ESMTP id LAA05981 for ; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 11:32:30 -0700 Received: from bitsy.hollyfeld.org (bitsy.hollyfeld.org [38.240.235.1]) by nova.unix.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) with ESMTP id HAA17632 for ; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 07:20:06 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by bitsy.hollyfeld.org (8.7.4/8.7.3) id KAA05389 for thelema93-l-outgoing; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 10:27:58 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: bitsy.hollyfeld.org: majordom set sender to owner-thelema93-l using -f Received: from scorch.doc.ic.ac.uk (scorch.doc.ic.ac.uk [146.169.2.14]) by bitsy.hollyfeld.org (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA05365 for ; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 10:25:19 -0400 Received: from onyour.doc.ic.ac.uk (onyour.doc.ic.ac.uk [146.169.14.19]) by scorch.doc.ic.ac.uk (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA07968; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 14:58:00 +0100 (BST) Received: (from mpn@localhost) by onyour.doc.ic.ac.uk (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA23736; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 14:56:31 +0100 (BST) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 14:56:31 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199609201356.OAA23736@onyour.doc.ic.ac.uk> From: Mark Nuttall To: thelema93-l@hollyfeld.org Subject: Re: War God Opens Heart Chakra, Film at Eleven In-Reply-To: <2.2.16.19960920143604.294fed54@alf.uib.no> References: <2.2.16.19960920143604.294fed54@alf.uib.no> Sender: owner-thelema93-l@hollyfeld.org Precedence: bulk reply-to: thelema93-l@hollyfeld.org Status: RO 93 /me: >> Amongst the more established traditions I find the general view to be that >> spiritual growth requires an opening of the heart chakra, which for the >> most part will only happen once the individual has done the necessary >> repairs to and work with their (lower three chakras/four sephira/four >> terrestrial circuits/ call 'em what you will.) ata > I'm not sure what you mean with 'established traditions'. Bodies of teaching that have been around for a while. Buddhism, Yoga/Hinduism, Christianity even, QBL, Taoism etc etc. Things you can find books on and teachers of. > NewAgers talk about 'opening the heart'-chakra a lot of the time - but this > is not what you refer to, is it? We do quite a few exercises in our kundalini yoga class which we're told `open the heart chakra' .. I don't know what NewAgers refer to, but I'd guess I'm talking about the yogic equivalent of Liber Samekh, QBListic pathworkings to Tiphareth and/or whatever else has similar effects on consciousness. > You can surely 'call 'em what you will', but that doesn't make them the > same. The chakra system differs from the Tree of Life in many ways, and in > my view they can not be interchanged just like that. [...] But what I see > some people doing is saying that such and such chakra is equal to such and > such on the Tree. Which I don't think really works all that well. There may > be 'experiential' similarities between the chakra-system and the microscopic > tree, but they are not interchangable on a 1:1 basis, if you get my meaning. Hmm Ok differences and similarities. Three worlds and general elemental models ----------------------------------------- The first thing I'd say is that Arild is quite right: the chakratic system and the Tree are not interchangeable. The Tree is a highly general-purpose tool, very flexible and applicable to many situations. The chakratic system is much more specific, dealing with the physio-psycho-spiritual makeup of man. If one maps the tree onto the body in such a way as to effect some sort of comparison, there are differences and similarities. Root chakra and Malkuth are broadly similar, as are Sahaswara and Kether, in that not much can be said about either of them and they're functionally very similar. Heart chakra and Tiphareth do share many similarities experientially as Arild mentions. The others fit in more or less well. Both Yogis and Cabalists seem broadly agreed on what seems to be a global mystic model, that of `Three Worlds' or `planes' or whatnot. There's [1] something broadly physical, [2] something like `chi' or `prana' or `orgone' or `energy' or `vital force' and then there's [3] `spirit' `that which neither is nor is is not nor neither is nor is not' `mumble mumble' `void' etc. This division into three worlds is seen in the three triangles on the tree. In the yogic model the lower four chakras are attributed to the elements (earth-water-fire-air) with akasha at throat... elemental attributions to the lower four sephira are also common, though sometimes they're all four squished into malkuth. So, when I referred to the `lower three chakras' and the `lower four sephira' I was really talking about the `lower' (more immediate, physical) of the three planes. The functions of sensing, intellection and feeling are in both traditions assigned to this plane --- though some yogis will place intellect/Hod-like things in throat, and some in third (fire) chakra along wth the more personal-will-Geburah-like things. There is _not_ total agreement, there are definite differences. Both `three world' models include some sort of sub- or unconscious - Yesod and Qoph in (GD/Crowleyian) QBL are resonant both of some 1st and 2nd chakra functions , broadly speaking. My first paragraph, queried by Arild, might be paraphrased ``Before you can open up and love yourself and others and expand in illumination, it's broadly a good idea to sort your subconscious out, shake up your thought patterns, integrate your thinking and feeling selves, pay more attention to non-verbal senses and what's going on inside your body and stop projecting your fears and complexes out into the world at large.'' The chakratic picture does not just `map onto' the body as the Tree can - it's an image taken from `esoteric yogic medicine' and is part of a vast body of knowledge on the human bodies, of which there are (n) where (n) >= 3, depending on who you talk to. Sometimes each chakra yields a body, so there are seven. Sometimes more or less. Anyways, the Indian maps of the subtle bodies are very well developed, and very well integrated with the physical. What I found most useful about the chakras is that invested with a minimal amount of belief and a few (weeks/months/maybe more) chanting the right sounds, one soon begins to have experiences of energetic flow and such like in the regions of the body associated with the chakra in question. Crowley describes the body of light as the `fundamental unit of magick' and the yogic corpus is absolutely full of practical things to do that awaken and exercise this body - as of course are most other mystical traditions. Arild: > To tell you the truth, I don't quite get what you're driving at. [Laughter.] I doubt you're alone. Mark 93 93/93