Path: shell.portal.com!svc.portal.com!sdd.hp.com!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!panix!not-for-mail
From: rakshasa@panix.com (Kevin Filan)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,alt.satanism,alt.magick,alt.religion.all-worlds
Subject: Re: Satanist/NeoPagan War
Date: 22 Jun 1996 18:02:59 -0400
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Lines: 66
Message-ID: <4qhqij$fm@panix2.panix.com>
References: <4pkpee$dqu@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> <4pks9k$o@news.internetmci.com> <4pn3ok$rv4@news.internetmci.com> <4qahhg$m4l@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: panix2.panix.com
Xref: shell.portal.com alt.pagan:164109 alt.satanism:45939 alt.magick:77456 alt.religion.all-worlds:8111

In article <4qahhg$m4l@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
Catherine Deville <cdeville@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>On 12 Jun 1996 18:54:12 GMT, Xina <xina@netins.net> wrote:
>
>>Oh thats right! I forgot!!! All you people 'playing in the Light of the 
>>God/dess' get to decide who gets to play on the dippy hippy dead head 
>>playground of neo-paganism!  Yay!!  
>
>You know, a point that keeps coming up whenever I am trying to
>champion the point of view which those of you who claim that Satanists
>(or at least some Satanists) belong within the Neo-Pagan community is
>this:
>
>	"If they belong with us, why do they hate us so much?  All we 
>	ever hear is how much they dispise us?"

	My $.02 -- I don't speak for anyone but myself.

	1) Are Satanists Pagans? Well, to answer that, I'd have to hear 
these questions answered:

	a) What are "Pagans"

	b) What are "Satanists."

	Is belief in a literal, anthropomorphic deity necessary before 
one may be classified a Pagan? (Or should I see belief in deit_ies_)?  If 
so, I'd say CoS (LaVeyan) Satanists are certainly _not_ Pagan.  I'd go 
further and say that most of them don't _want_ to be classified as Pagans 
and don't have a high regard for the Wiccan/Pagan community.

	Among predominantly theistic Satanists like the Temple of Set, 
the problem gets a little more complex.  I _would_ classify someone like 
Scratch (who honors Tezcatlipolca(sp?) and Set) as Pagan.  I've met other 
Setians who appeared to me to be Thelemites/Chaos Magicians, not Pagans.  
(Are Thelemites Pagans? Is someone who honors Nuit, Hadit, and 
Ra-Hoor-Khuit a Pagan or is he something else entirely?)

	Then to complicate matters further we have the European Satanic
tradition (i.e. ONA).  I've heard a fair bit on this, but haven't read
enough to make any informed decision.  I _would_ say that they do have a
strong "Pagan" slant and use much of the same imagery which Pagans and
Wiccans use in their rituals.

	Finally, as if things weren't complicated enough, there are a fair
number of Satanists who are also interested in Runes, Norse Paganism, and
forms of "dark Paganism."  I have met Satanists who are also Asatru (at
least one influential Asatru scholar is also a member of the Temple of
Set).  I can certainly imagine a "Satanist" who revered the image of 
Kali.  Would s/he qualify as a Pagan.  Or would s/he be a Pagan only when 
performing "Kali" rites and not when honoring the egregore known as "Satan?"

	I don't think the boundary is as clear-cut as many people claim, 
and trying to pretend that it is -- on either side -- is bound to cause 
problems and further obfuscate the issue.

>Now, your remark tends to support those feelings.  If the Neo-Pagan
>community is such a "dippy hippy dead head playground" (which from
>your wording sounds like it is a _bad_ thing in your book) then why do
>you _want_ to play with us?

	There are many Satanists who do not.  On the other hand, there 
are some who do.  And, IMHO, some of them _are_ Pagans.  

Peace
Kevin Filan