To: alt.zen
From: tyagI@houseofkaos.Abyss.coM (tyagi mordred nagasiva)
Subject: Re: Zen and the Art of Rote Memorization (9409.usepost.tn)
Date: 49940915
Quoting: |QUARK@nice.guy.pushed.too.far (QUARK) 

|increase in the noise-to-signal ratio.    It is truly regrettable that a topic 
|as vast and wide as zen is being reduced here to quasi-clever banalities.

Agreed, and I think that Lisa was pointing out something similar.


|Alas, what to do?   

1) Use killfiles to eliminate frequent spammers (at least for 30 days).

2) Do not respond to the idiots, ignore them and they will go away.

3) Set a perfect example by being silent most of the time and responding
   when it seems appropriate and with substance (as you see it, of course,
   which will tell us what you consider to be substance).

4) Don't post off-topic and take personal correspondence to email rather
   than to the newsgroup, reducing noise even further.


And:

|The vast majority of folks here are largely ignorant of 
|the wide spectrum of buddhist literature, not to mention the cultural mileau 
|that zen originated and developed in.   

5) Don't bother attempting to characterize people who post to the newsgroup,
   since most will disagree with your characterization of them at least and
   you're probably not saying anything that hasn't been said in flames.


|We won't even talk about actual zen 
|practice,  disciplined zazen,  genuine koan training, etc..   

Then start doing so.  Generate subject-lists such as this, generate
frequently asked question (FAQ) lists (or proto-lists).  Then respond
to them as often as you like (changing your answers as you change).
Address people here with respect and honor and you shall encourage
serious exchange.
  

|Given this, there is a fundamental limitation on how much communication 
|can really take place in a newsgroup such as this.   

This is the assumption, I think, of people who think that the zendo is the
best place to learn Zen, especially those who appear to require tons of
rules in order to have a 'safe, secure environment' for Zen.  I think that
it may be possible (and I have little experience to back this other than
social interaction among religous/spiritual groups online and off) to allow
a group/place with NO rules of conduct and, as with the plant which is
in our garden that we want to grow, inspire rather than require respectable
and honorable behavior.


|Those that practice zen seriously either do not post on groups such as this, 
|or quickly are resigned to endure a lot of quacking.   

I don't know how you can possibly make such an assessment without transgres-
sing into arrogance.  I certainly could not.


|But what a pity nonetheless! 

What a challenge!  Let us set forth to address it.  Quark, I have enjoyed
many of your posts here and continue to find gems that you contribute.  I
see that you are truly interested in making alt.zen substantive and that
you are doing what you know best to inspire it.  I wish you the best in
your endeavors online and off and hope that we can work together to raise
the level of signal here.

nagasiva@yronwode.com
tyagi nagasiva 
_________

        A visiting master is having tea with his host.
        Host:  "How many words are there?"
        Visitor:  "How many voices are there?"
        The host points to a full teacup, says, "That cup is dry."
        The visitor says, "The cup is yours," and drinks the tea.
 
   Commentary:   When the leaves are in the pot, what does it 
                 matter who picked them?
 
Lee J. Merkel 
lmerkel@BIX.com