Path: shell.portal.com!shell.portal.com!not-for-mail From: nagasiva@yronwode.com (xiwang mu) Newsgroups: alt.occult.kabbalah.golden-dawn,alt.religion.wicca,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.pagan,alt.religion,talk.religion.misc,alt.satanism,alt.magick.moderated Subject: Crowley and Witchcraft (Was GD=Aleister Crowley?) Followup-To: alt.occult.kabbalah.golden-dawn,alt.religion.wicca,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.pagan,alt.religion,talk.religion.misc,alt.satanism Date: 29 Mar 1996 11:26:02 -0800 Organization: Portal Communications (shell) Lines: 92 Sender: tyagi@shell.portal.com Approved: nagasiva@yronwode.com Message-ID: <4jhdga$9k6@jobe.shell.portal.com> References: <9603262046.aj08531@news.demon.net> Reply-To: nagasiva@yronwode.com (xiwang mu) NNTP-Posting-Host: jobe.shell.portal.com Xref: shell.portal.com alt.occult.kabbalah.golden-dawn:44 alt.religion.wicca:25188 alt.magick.tyagi:7334 alt.pagan:152756 alt.religion:2085 talk.religion.misc:211588 alt.satanism:40066 alt.magick.moderated:284 kaliyuga 49960329 Tony Jung : |>Wasn't GD Crowley's group formed in the 1920s? This has already been addressed. Crowley joined late in the turn of the century GD Life, playing a part in its breakup as an associate of Mathers. There are several accounts of the events of that time period and some of are quite humorous. It was not Crowley's group in any case. There are few which qualify for such a label, the AA and OTO being possible alternatives, though these have little if anything to do with the Golden Dawn. Corrections welcome. |>Didn't this group have Satanic themes as well as Wicca? That all depends on what you think 'Satanic themes' includes. By the standards of a conservative Christian of course these groups include Satanism, since they tend to use 'Satanism' to mean 'doing ritual that doesn't worship or originate in my God'. Crowley is likely more of a Satanic individual than the GD people before and around him. He took on names of the Adversary and described his activities in ways easily arguable as oriented to a Satanist mythos and attitude (now talking about 'Satanists' in a more rational sense, cf the alt.satanism FAQs). Dave : |...While it is true that Crowley contributed tio witchcraft (there are |fairly persistent stories that he helped to design the ceremonial for |Gardner's witchcratf but I cannot vouch for this one way of the other). The historical analysis of this issue has been rather delicate in alt.magick over the years. We've got a REF file on the history of Wicca and Crowley's relation to it. All told I have seldom seen it reputed by solid sources (such as those were studying Gardner's Books of Shadows, etc.) that Crowley helped the design of ceremonies. Usually I've heard it said that Crowley and Gardner met, Gardner was at some point initiated into OTO and given a Charter. Perhaps most importantly, Gardner used Crowley's texts as resource material, along with other sources, for his earliest Books of Shadows. |The GD itself had nothing to do with witchcraft and |works in a different way at a different level. This may or may not have been the case. For one I think that Gardner was heavily influenced by ceremonialists during that period of time. Apparently Dorothy Clutterbuck (the traditional Mother of the Gardnerian line) was involved with rosicrucian and/or other masonic-type initiatory orgs, for example. One quote from the REF as an example of why I bring up the point: # Wicca as Gardner presented it was a mixup of western esoteric traditions # (Golden Dawn, Masonry etc), Celtic and Germanic mythology and reconstructions # of their religions ideas based on ancient written sources, surviving folk- # lore, the theories of the anthropologist Margaret Murray, Charles Leland's # _Aradia_, and so forth.... # alahelma@cc.helsinki.fi (Antti Lahelma) # --------------------------------------- From 'whstref' at: http://www.hollyfeld.org/~tyagi/Amgkfaq/REFref.html So if nothing else, the Golden Dawn is *perceived* as having had a direct influence over the historical origins of Wicca and, therefore, witchcraft. I'd be grateful for any commentary on these conjectures. Not really being involved with the GD in any way, I look to Usenet as a means of testing out such hypotheses in comparison with the experience of my fellows. Thank you for your time. Free love, right now! nagasiva@yronwode.com mu -- To ensure my response CC all public replies to email (READ alt.magick.tyagi) (emailed replies may be posted) * http://www.hollyfeld.org/~tyagi/nagasiva.html INTENTIONAL .SIG PROTEST: FUCK SHIT PISS COCKSUCKER MOTHERFUCKER TITS CUNT