Path: shell.portal.com!svc.portal.com!sdd.hp.com!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!pipeline!not-for-mail From: rant@nyc.pipeline.com (Alfred Vitale) Newsgroups: alt.magick Subject: Re: "Secret Rituals of the OTO" Date: 8 Jan 1996 08:44:58 -0500 Organization: The Pipeline Lines: 59 Message-ID: <4cr74q$88i@pipe3.nyc.pipeline.com> References: <81526@toad.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pipe3.nyc.pipeline.com X-PipeUser: rant X-PipeHub: nyc.pipeline.com X-PipeGCOS: (alfred vitale) X-Newsreader: The Pipeline v3.4.0 On Jan 08, 1996 02:59:46 in article , 'tim@toad.com (Tim Maroney)' wrote: >Anthropologists have been outgrowing their assumption that initiations >are about the candidate, and realizing they are at least as much about >the initiators and the audience. We should also start grappling with >that inconvenient fact within occultism. what you are referring to is environment and context. anthropologists are many years behind occultists, who already know that the initiators and the audience are integrally linked to the process of initiation. it's not an inconvenient fact. it's only inconvenient if one is selfish enough to be initiated into a GROUP or into a BODY of magick and ONLY think of it in terms of SELF gratification/reward (while it is important to remember the self in the initiation, part of it comes from the ability to be like a stream heading towards a river...to become a verb, as opposed to a noun. an initiate is not an object, an initiate is a person in the act of being initiated!) initiations, remember, are symbolic in nature...and the initiate (in western society) is GOING to be bewildered and impatient...but the young boy in the australian outback who sits in a bush for 2 days awaiting his next step in a week-long initiation is not impatient or bewildered. so don't blame the nature of occult groups (such as OTO) on the failure of the initiate to relax and not EXPECT to GAIN some reward. and the symbols of the initiation are to be reflected on later, as well as when they are being shown. it reminds me of the traditional catholic mas vs. the Gnostic Mass: because those who partake in the eucharist at the catholic mass have no clear context, the eucharist is nothing more than getting on line and eating a wafer...within the context of the Gnostic Mass, the individual is INTEGRALLY LINKED to the entire process...to the temple...to the other participants...and so the cake of light takes on a greater individual significance. the equation of initiation rituals seems to be: participant + environment + context + group = initiation. you also said: >In talking to people, I have often found that they seem to >consider watching the initiations more potent than taking them. well...what do you think the initiation gives them access to? OTHER initiations!!! it's a process...it continues after the mere formalities and the more initiations you are involved with, the more you will develop...but you still need the initiations to be able to witness other ones. anthropolgists know THAT. -- alfred vitale a man who used to have a long signature, but now has decided against it in the interest of not boring you, the dedicated reader, to tears. in the event that this signature DOES bore you, i'd suggest maybe you stop reading it now. but apparently you still haven't so i guess you do not have the courage to stand up for your convictions.