Path: shell.portal.com!svc.portal.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: cyronwode@aol.com (Cyronwode) Newsgroups: alt.magick.tantra,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.pagan,alt.religion.wicca,alt.magick,alt.lucky.w,alt.magick.ethics Subject: Re: FGreywolfe: A.O.Spare, Fra.U'D',TOPY Date: 8 Dec 1995 18:24:07 -0500 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 64 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <4aahen$13k@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: <4a8mbt$kv2@jobe.shell.portal.com> Reply-To: cyronwode@aol.com (Cyronwode) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com Xref: shell.portal.com alt.magick.tantra:184 alt.magick.tyagi:5277 alt.pagan:136282 alt.religion.wicca:18165 alt.magick:60865 alt.lucky.w:262 alt.magick.ethics:694 nagasiva@yronwode.com (ny'rl'toth'p) wrote: >Frater Greywolfe wrote: >| Is it black magick to make charms? Under all (or no) circumstances? >Very black magick, yes, especially if you do so with herbs and if you >learn about geomancy. The darker arts are nearer the Earth, always. >| Which ones? >All charms qualify here, though those with oppositional energies and >egotistical purposes may well qualify as more darkly natural. Among folklorists the primary distinction seems to be a distinction made between apotropaic charms (intended to avert malevolent turns of events) and tropaic charms (intended to invite benevolent turns of events). How this distinction applies to what magicians call "white" and "black" magic (or what chaos magicians call "grey" magic, which falls between the two extremes) is not easy to discern, at least to me. Examples of apotropaic charms include blue glass eye, fica, corno, cat's eye shell, and hamsa hand amulets to avert the evil eye. This is not "black magic," in that no harm is intended, nor is there any magnification of the ego's selfish interests. But apotropaic charms are not "white," either, in that they do not call upon what most religiously-inclined people consider to be "high" forms of spiritual energy. Examples of tropaic charms include those which fall into the areas variously categorized as "white" and "grey" and black" magic. White: an "angel" amulet or a stone inscribed "peace;" Grey: an illa/canopa/chacra amulet to promote health and fertility in herd animals; Black: voodoo "Bendover" oil used to bring another person under one's control. The making of charms is far more complex than the dyadic distinction between "black:" and "white" magic would allow. Many charms -- especially the collage-like "Mexican Protection Packets" sold in Hispanic-influenced areas of California -- contain several elements that range from protective to attractive. One can attract money while repelling poverty and these packets aim to do so by utilizing an image of a Catholic saint known to take pity on the poor as well as a sacred seed associated with prosperity and the mimetic magic of gold sequins, magnets, and magnetized iron filings. Ultimately, the distinction between "white" and "black" is mediated by religious beliefs. If one's religion embraces the making of charms, a specified charm may be "white" -- but if one belongs to a religion which legislates charms, a charm that falls outside that framework (e.g. using a sacred seed instead of a saint image) may be seen as "grey" at best and as "black" at worst. In the end, i think that such distinctions convey more information about the culture of the person making the judgements than they do aboiut the charms per se. catherine yronwode cyronwode@aol.com alt.lucky.w -- the newsgroup of synchronicity, amulets, and talismans sustag-principles@ces.ncsu.edu -- e-mail list for the sacred landscape http://sunSITE.unc.edu/london/The_Sacred_Landscape.html