Path: news.bjt.net!news.vaultline.net!news.infinex.com!news3.crl.com!nntp1.crl.com!howland.erols.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news-in-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!204.73.178.32!chippy.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!supernews.com!Supernews69!kudonet.com!not-for-mail From: nagasiva@yronwode.com (nagasiva) Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,alt.pagan.magick,alt.mythology,alt.pagan,alt.fan.kali.astarte.inanna Subject: RRosen: Feminist Reworkings of Misogynistic Traditions (was Re: Crowley and Feminism) Date: 21 Jul 1997 16:51:45 -0700 Organization: KudoNet On-Line Services Lines: 140 Sender: tyagi@kudonet.com Message-ID: <5r0smh$76f@kudo20.kudonet.com> Reply-To: lilitu@cjnetworks.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 26784@165.227.52.9 X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 (NOV) Xref: news.bjt.net alt.magick.tyagi:865 alt.magick:5875 alt.pagan.magick:874 alt.mythology:1925 alt.pagan:12253 [from thelema93-l@hollyfeld.org: Renee Rosen ] At 02:14 PM 7/3/97 +0100, you wrote: >Its a good example - In Oxford there was for many years a feminist mag called >lilith, although the editors had v little awareness of the origin. I assume you are referring to the Jewish feminist magazine Lilith? It's still around--there's a link to their website on my Lilith Shrine. There is an >interesting piece on babalon in the thelema zone > >Went to a lecture the other night on Inanna, who is, so I understood, the >original of the Lilith, and is the great goddess of Sumerian culture, and not >'evil' in any sense, although she is very sexual/scarlet. Inanna is *not* the origin of Lilith. Her origins are in the Akkadian demons (or class of demons) Lilu, Lilitu, and Ardat-Lili. Lilu was the male demon and Lilitu was the female demon, whereas Ardat-Lili was a succubus (her name means something like "Lil" maiden). "Lil" was most probably a loan-word from the Sumerian which meant "haunting spirit" (there's another meaning for "lil" in Sumerian--atmosphere). The most famous Sumerian demoness with "lil" as part of her name was Ki-sikil-lil-la (sometimes called Lilake), who appeared in one of the Sumerian versions of the Epic of Gilgamesh. She's definitely *not* Inanna; in fact, she's an "enemy" of Inanna--she had taken up residence in Inanna's Hullupu Tree and Gilgamesh had to kick her out of it. Samuel Kramer chose to translate "Ki-sikil-lil-la" as "Lilith," which has led many people to believe Lilith was up in that tree, even though it was more like her great grandmother, so to speak. The word "Lilitu" was borrowed into Hebrew as Lilith, which can also mean a class of demons, both male and female (the liliths, lilim or liliot), similar to the "generic" Hebrew demon, the shedim. Lilith in her origins was demonic and remained so until the present day. (The only "divine" strain of Lilith's "ancestry" is the possible influence of Lamashtu on Lilitu/Lilith--Lamashtu was an Akkadian demoness who killed infant children and who may very well have been a goddess originally. I'm a bit suspicious of an actual connection to Lilith, though.) Of course, the same could be said of the Scarlet Woman and/or Babalon. *grin* It doesn't stop me from being influenced or affected by Lilith--it just makes me a bit more cautious, since I refuse to ignore her true history. Renee lilitu@cjnetworks.com ----------------------- [and] On 9 Jul 97 at 22:43, Stephen Cass wrote: > 93. For Lilith as "phallic woman", see " Basics to Interpreting the > Black Moon" by Lee A. Suyterman. > Thanks for giving the source. I will admit that I haven't read much into the astrological Lilith (i.e., the non-existant "black moon"), so I'll have missed any references in that literature. > There are some references to Lilith (& her consort, Lucifer) as > hermaphroditic, but I wonder if this reference is not a nod to Her > independence? Who's stating that Lucifer is her consort? The only links I've seen between Lilith and Lucifer have been *modern* links, not ancient ones. In fact, the article on Lilith in the Encyclopedia of Religions edited by Eliade specifically remarks that it's surprising that there hasn't been much connection between the two. (Personally I don't think it's surprising considering Lilith is Akkadian/Jewish in origin and Lucifer is Roman (or is it Greek?)/Christian in origin, so it wouldn't make much sense for Jews to refer to Lucifer.) Lilith's consorts are traditionally Ashmodai (Asmodeus) and Samael, the first the king of the demons and the second one of the fallen angels. (Sometimes you see references to two Liliths, the Elder and the Younger, with one being the consort to Ashmodai and the other being the consort to Samael, though I forget which was which.) Any references to her being hermaphroditic most probably are from Kabbalistic traditions (after the "First Eve" story was borrowed into Kabbalistic lore)--Adam was supposedly hermaphroditic before the creation of Eve, so since Lilith predated Eve, she must be hermaphroditic too. (At least that's my understanding of the hermaphroditic aspects of her legend--I'm not a Kabbalist, so I may have some details wrong.) > And, yes, She may be considered "anti-fertility" on the Mundane > Plane, but She has Children of Men in other places. The old stories > of "child murder" could possibly refer to the spilling of seed by > masturbation/Night Dreams of Her male Devotees. (Leila=the Night). She's clearly antifertility on any plane--according to Jewish tradition, she gives birth to thousands of demons daily but half of them daily are killed. As for the "child murder" aspect of Lilith, depsite later apologists trying to whitewash the issue, that has been a primary aspect of her from her Akkadian origins. For centuries, Jews have made amulets to protect their newborn children against her child-killing aspects, and some Orthodox Jews still do. There's even evidence that her Akkadian predecessors, the Lilu and Lilitu, required amulets to protect children against them. There isn't much connection between her child-killing aspect and her succubus aspect, except for modern interpretations thereof. In fact, most legends of her or her children focus primarily on one aspect or the other; rarely do both occur in the same legend. Her succubus aspect was not her bestowing graces on her "devotees" (though it could be so in *modern* practice)--she had no devotees until this century. Her origins are demonic, not divine. As for the Laylah ("night")/Lilith connection, that's one of popular etymology--the words sound very similar, so people assumed they were related, and she became associated more with the night because of that. Lilith comes from the Akkadian Lilu/Lilitu. The "lil" were a class of demons, with Lilu being the male and Lilitu being the female. This is the commonly accepted etymology now, though some older sources (and works based on those sources) may still refer to "laylah" being the root of Lilith. > (Other opinions are welcome, and I am still fairly NU to the > Archetype. :-) 93.93/93. Sorry if I come out bitchy in this post--devotees of Lilith are known for being stubborn and opionated;> Seriously, I've been researching her for over 2 years now, and I've seen this disinformation spread about her for a while now (and written similar replies over and over again). I think it's about time I get around to writing that Lilith FAQ I keep meaning to write, or actually start writing the book about her that I mean to write. Now to find the time. At any rate, check out my Lilith Shrine and be sure to check out the link to Alan Humm's page on there if you want further information on Lilith. Renee lilitu@cjnetworks.com -- (emailed replies may be posted);join the AMT syncretism!!;call: 408/2-666-SLUG! see http://www.abyss.com/tokus; "Clement of Rome taught that God rules the world with a right and a left hand, the right being Christ, the left Satan."