From sarkis@luna.cas.usf.edu Sun Oct 23 14:43:10 1994 Date: Mon, 2 May 1994 15:17:47 -0400 (EDT) From: "Marianne Sarkis (ANT)" To: 002134r@dragon.acadiau.ca Subject: Thelema Log 4/20/94, Letters C-D Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law. [The following is the log from the class which took place on Wednesday 4/20/94 at 10:00 pm EST on #Thelema. The focus of the discussion was on letters C and D from the book _Magick Without Tears_. The discussion however, included some comments made on the letters discussed in last week's class. If you have any comments, please direct them to the Thelema discussion list at sarkis@luna.cas.usf.edu. Love is the law.] So. May I make a comment regarding one of the letters you have already reviewed? sure hsi..what is it? Re: Vow of Poverty. Crowley missed the boat. He specified that Thelema does not require the traditional vow. *** Elight (prainbol@indyunix.iupui.edu) has joined channel #thelema 93 93 elight! *** Stenodawn is now known as Ommadawn 93 elight 93 Elight!!! However, he did not reinterpret the whole notion of a vow. I think there are more reasonable uses for such things. I'm not saying that specific physical disciplines are useless. Just that there are other meanings for 'vow' than he makes plain in Letter B. One example: focussed around INTENT rather than BEHAVIOR. APPROACH rather than on RESTRICTION. POSITIVE rather than NEGATIVE. Example: Vow of Poverty. There are countless possibilities. One which I have personally selected: intending to maximize a balance with one's resources. It is more a personal focus than a specific physical orientation. I thought that something should be said regarding the narrowness of Crowley's focus, is all. but see the way i understood it from the book is that that was _not_ what he was focusing on...no vow of poverty.. I.e. as a focus not upon legal ownership but on personal attitude toward dominion and a relationship with the world. Yes, he says that Thelema AVOIDS the traditional vow of poverty. Somehow it the Thelemic Order is more *liberal* or *dangerous* because it does not participate in the traditional view. 93 sorry I'm so damned late All I'm saying is that the traditional view isn't the only alternative. Saying that I don't worship God by going to Church every Sunday misses the point that there are esoteric meanings for Church, worship, etc. * techmage fell victim to netcom's spit and bailing wire approach to networking correct..and he even says :" It is only when one is built in this way, to stand entirely aloof from all considerations of twopence halfpenny more or fourpence halfpenny less, that one obtains perfect freedom on this Plane of Disks" Same is true with 'vows of poverty'. but see it does not matter...as long as it is being "devoted" to the Great Work Since Thelema is the studied of one self.. Then the traditional path is a good path to learn from.. take some time and study by it until it is part of you, then look for other pather of the tree. Yes, he points to a greater understanding. correct pather=paths El, works for some. Not all. Chaos Magicians may not find value in the trads, for example. but choais magick is very new in its existance.. And not a lot of set paths have been form for it It was Crowley's next to last paragraph in Letter B that I thought was presenting a rather narrow interpretation. El, I'm fairly convinced that Chaos Magick is just a new approach, not an entirely new trad. As you say, it is fairly new. right So was Letter B the last discussion last week? yup..i don't think we went beyond that.. it was in the log, methinks * Ommadawn didn't know what he meant by "buy a perfectly black hen without haggling" If so, any objections to moving to C? nope...we can do that if you all want to is this an expression i've missed? Omm, what Letter? :) omm: Its an old expression... B?Traditional injunction. that means you should put forth the extra effort what is going on..:) to do something... Nox, does it? Or does it mean to pay whatever the asking price (as for a magical item). That haggling cheapens the act? I've felt that way before (that haggling would spoil the event). hehe Looking a gift horse in the mouth. * Ommadawn is famioliar with the idea of not haggling for a magical item, just never heard this expression before i have a question When purchasing an equine one checks the teeth. When given one, this is hardly necessary. for example... if you need to buy a new sword, you pay as much as the asking price without trying to get around it. The extra effort you use to get the money to get the sword would then be useful. if ommadawn has letter C, then that means that the intro letters in R's book are also in the ftp articles. hsi: yes, that's what I meant. * Ommadawn is looking at letter C now Nox, gotcha. Thanks. cool! then the site articles are not missing these letters..cool :) ok ok..shall we? C? Sure. ok..here goes. Interesting stuff about Great Work, will, love and secrecy here. [This marks the official beginning of the class which is usually carried out by a focusing ritual] * Ommadawn knocks 3 timees, 5 times, 3 times Oh! That's right. oops..we forgot that! :) omm: thanks we'd like to start class with a little focusing ritual At this time, since i've lost the first letter temporarily... i'd just like to ask everyone to close their eyes for a few moments, take a few deep breaths * HsiWangMu settles herself and closes her eyes until she hears the bleep.. * HsiWangMu rouses herself, saying "Love is the law". * Vesta asks everyone to respond with this. E6 my kin. > What is thy will? *** DrChronos (tgoyett@nyx10.cs.du.edu) has joined channel #Thelema what is thy will? To eat pasta when hungry. to what end? to get some sleep... er... to read and think :> That I may satiate my hunger. to what end? *** Luunawind (mkenney@vax1.umkc.edu) has joined channel #thelema to think and learn.:) 93!! Vesta!!!!! *hugs!!* Love is the law, love under will. * Vesta knocks once "Fall to!" That I may continue to have lots of fun with all you Thelemites, attain to perfect wisdom and true happiness. Merry Meet, Igraine!!! *huggles* Yo adrienne. ok..the class is on its way.. letter C Letter C, then? letter c *** Signoff: techmage (Error 0) *** Mode change "+o Igraine" on channel #thelema by HsiWangMu *is lagged* bummer... I think Crowley's comment on the "great work is not a tea party" is a very important point. *** Mode change "+o Ghoxox" on channel #thelema by HsiWangMu *** Mode change "+o Elight" on channel #thelema by HsiWangMu Yes Nox, he then goes on to say something very wonderful about what the GW *is*. I think this was one of the biggest reasons for the fall of the G.D. That, I find, is rather unusual. Most simply presume we know. that is true...but do you think that he is suggesting a teacher-fellowsufferer/student relationship as opposed to group work? well...see you all later...after the lag, perhaps... *** Luunawind has left channel #thelema *** LadyRoo (KSWALLAC@indyvax.iupui.edu) has joined channel #thelema I think he is emphasizing the type of relationship he created in the A:. A:. I get the impression that he mentions it in order to stress the seriousness of the relationship. mm all * HsiWangMu begins to think about an invite channel. *** Mode change "+i" on channel #thelema by Vesta * LadyRoo guesses she should leave then. * HsiWangMu points at Nox and puts one finger on her nose. :> * Igraine thinks that's not a good idea, but a moderated channel is. *** LadyRoo has left channel #thelema You're fine, Roo. *** Mode change "+m" on channel #thelema by Vesta * HsiWangMu doesn't like moderated. "This is an open discussion." please make up your minds! *** Mode change "-m" on channel #thelema by Vesta i like the invite *** Vesta has changed the topic on channel #thelema to /msg Vesta for invite Why not just change the topic to "Class in progress" *** Vesta has changed the topic on channel #thelema to Class in progress../msg Vesta for invite better? greta oops great *** +i No such channel all right...continue please He goes on to say that the GW is the "uniting of opposites". Is this overly simplistic? For example, *is* the soul the 'opposite' of God, as he implies? i don't think so... the uniting of dichotomies Yeah.. but its a useful oversimplification. Are the male and female 'opposites'? *** techmage (~techmage@netcom8.netcom.com) has joined channel #thelema How useful, frater? sheesh no..they are complimentaries 93 all * DrChronos Raises hand for comment Dr, just speak your piece. :> *** You have been marked as being away Below the abyss, things seem as opposites... though the only way they could ever be combined is if they originally one. No raising your hands necessary for the time being. daath? :) The saying that the Great Work is simple is like saying that 0 = 2 is simple. It is VERY simple but _Extremely_ hard to do. Nox speaks in Kwabbala-speak. To get to the point of realizing their "non-opposition", it is useful to focus on what you perceive as opposites and "combine" them. That is the process of the great work. but he did say, it _may_ mean...so it can mean whatever you want it to mean..maybe resolving the different dichotomies in ones life? Dr, are you agreeing then that Crowley was being simplistic in his language? sorry... does everyone know what I mean when I talk of the abyss? frater:please explain I assume you speak of Daath Yes, its simply said but difficult to do. * HsiWangMu doesn't advise a full review of Qabalah. no..i don't. the abyss of dat.. daath.. Very very tangent-making. If anyone has questions about any terminology that anyone uses, please ask! * DrChronos does Yes, perhaps one or two comments to sum the meaning of a term? :> <: Quickly the abyss can be described (oversimplified) as the the divison between the microcasm and the macrocosm. between the intellectual self and the divine. It seems obvious to me that it would likely have been helpful to have the woman's letter to whom Crowley was writing. * FraterNOX agrees * Vesta thinks that all the woman's letters would have been helpful... but unfortunately, the student;s side of the story is often ignored :( oh well.. Crowley is addressing specific things she mentioned in her letter to him. He therefore shifts from item to item. E.g. from 'Great Work' to 'love under will',. * HsiWangMu notes that we are reviewing _Magick Without Tears_, Letter C. This might be too much of a tangent... but I remember reading somewhere that these letters were written to Jane Wolfe. Does anyone have any information about that? nope nope. Regardie calls her 'a lady'. so is love the uniting of opposites? vesta: think of "love" as a synonym for yoga. At least in this case. ok frater, that makes sense and is really helpful. thanks :) Crowley seems to think that 'love under will' is so, yes. so that is different from the Agape? 'hydrogen and chlorine' is Crowley's example. 'sodium and oxygen'. I've wondered that too, Vesta. In terms of what Crowley and others *mean* by 'love' when they use it. hhmm... There are lots of kinds of love in Greek, for example. right.. Eros, Agape, being two. No, he translates this as agape, but its useful to note the line in Al about the sepent and the dove. granted, but i thought taht the "love is the law, love under will" is from the Agape...there was nothing about unity there Nox, are you saying that *whenever* Crowley writes 'love' he means 'agape'? hsi: I've thought about that as well, but at least for Crowley, he always seemed to translate this line with agape. Perfect. Makes the 'anti-Thelemite Erosions' more potent. * HsiWangMu grins. *** Morton (x@asylum.sf.ca.us) has joined channel #thelema ha (93) Do y'all accept what he says that 'love has to be "under will" if it is to be properly directed'? ok..so can we say that in this letter love has two meanings..the agape, and the yoga? Vesta, I think that agape is, per Nox, the equivalent of yoga here. see, i am still confused about that one...i have studying this for a while and it still has not clicked in yet please explain vesta: What is your definition of agape? *** Ommadawn (anzlovar@137.29.2.8) has joined channel #thelema got to run.. 93/93 93... call wasted... the all encompassing love...the purest form, etc *** Elight has left channel #thelema Great question Nox (re: the Vesta's definition of agape). V, purest in comparison to what? Debasing physical love, perhaps? :> hsi:yes :) * HsiWangMu ewwwwwwwwwwws. hhhmm.. Does agape include sex? (In the way that you see it, V) (or anyone for that matter) Does it include S/M, for example? when i heard about agape, it was contrasted with eros if sex is for a "higher" "spiritual" form, it may..i don't know..atht is why i asked (I'd like a transcript of this class. anyone keeping a log?) i am morton Om, I've heard it that way too. vesta: To my knowledge "agape" was always used as meaning a kind of love thy neighbor idea. This can be logically extended to the idea of the love of everything (i.e. a union with everything). *** Signoff: techmage (Error 0 occurred.) * Vesta gets her handy dandy Webster's so..in other words, Yoga? morton: yes, but I can't remeber who... vesta: yup :> * Ommadawn didn't know websters had greek... Doesn't 'love under will' sound like domination? 'Man on top, missionary-position thinking'? union with everything under will.. Why not 'will under love'? err...all he says was Agape;Love..bleuch! some help he is well, given his definition of love, i interp. it to mean that you are in control of the situation why not through..? :) ok..i think we need then to define what Thelema is and what Agape is in this in this context that is that in merging the opposites, the will or desire of the mage is formost, rather than circumstance agape is a very big concept. long history of Christian, Hermetic usage. The Mass is associated with 'agapic feasts' which are also associated with orgies. If you define will as Crowley does, then it would seem that the statement would imply that one should try to seek union, but only under the ultimate consideration that it is your path (i.e. will). well, according to cparticle, thelema in modern greek means "want" hsi: seems appropriate :> I think that he uses agape all the time because of the gematria of the word. Love or whatever is Under WILL because will is the thing that makes for a magick. ok dr Let me restate the last thing. Will is what make things magical. I think that Crowley may be overly-focussed on control here, however. He talks about making all our actions 'subservient to the one great purpose' after finding our 'True Will'. Dr, excellent point. is it "overly"? isn't the goal of the mage to eliminate happenstance, to have control of the situation? true will...being our true path.. hsi: If you equate the concept of will with the Tao, then it makes sense.... Omm, I think that many people think of it this way, yes. (I think this is an over-emphasis on control. See human's futile attempts to 'control' nature, inner and outer.) Nox, 'subservient to'? How? after all, isn't that why we do banishing, cast circle, to eliminate outside influence? 93 all Union might seem like a good idea, but nothing is always good in every situation (i.e. rape is not the best of all "unions"). It seems that if you are following the course of the universe, then you can not do wrong. Now finding out the course of the universe is the hard part. adn how you fit in? vesta: Exactly. It is important to unite with Pan, but it can only happen one step at a time, and it is important to know which steps to take. :( is it possible to know the will of the universe? it's hard enough to know *your* will... and if you do truly know your will, then it should be the same, should it not? assuming you are a part of the universe as above, so below? frater:PAN? omm: If I understand what you are saying, then I would agree. (at least on a theoretical level). *** HsiWangMu (Tyagi@os1.corp.portal.com) has joined channel #thelema i am saying that if you *truly* know yr will, it should also be the will of the universe *** DrChronos (tgoyett@nyx10.cs.du.edu) has joined channel #thelema pan... the thelemic deity that symbolizes the "all"... or the reflection of the all. but one should think globally, act locally, to use a cliche omm: I would agree with that. *** Mode change "+o HsiWangMu" on channel #thelema by w6yx.stanford.edu frater: reflection of all..sounds yesodic.. *** Signoff: CParticle (Leaving) * mudslayer flops around. I notice that people talk alot about whether people are doing their true wills or not, then mention that it is damn difficult to know if someone is doing their true will (tw), but few presume that it is happening until shown otherwise. I think that very few people are really doing their True Will. Sure people are doing good. But in order to do your True Will you must have K&C/HGA and I don't think that happens very much. Dr, really? I didn't know that. Doing your True Will is somthing that happens after the Great Work is accomplished Yeah well.... I think we could spend hours talking about "Pan" and the "Night of Pan", so I'm just trying to give a quick def'n. *after*? goodness same here dr.i did not know that Sorry, y'all, I missed any talk about a 'point-event'. Anybody know what it is? Nox, great idea (quick defs :>)> *** orbital (~orbital@199.2.48.11) has joined channel #thelema (References where possible :>). (Or of course make appointments to speak about special tangents later. :>) The book of Lies talks a lot about these concepts... so does Liber 7. hsi: How's that :> Does everyone see what I mean about 'point-events'? Crowley seems to make the understnading of this concept key to an understanding of love and will. *** Signoff: mudslayer (Leaving) what is it? * Ommadawn is unclear about point events Letter C, paragraph 5. I don't. I don't know off hand. *** Signoff by mudslayer detected i understand where it is, but i don't understand what it is I get the impression he's going to define it later. I may even remember reading about it. It may relate to vectors. *** Signoff: Igraine (Leaving) Physics taken to esotericism. An important item to remember for later discussion. *** Signoff by Igraine detected The other topic Crowley brings up here is secrecy. point-event... isn't that a single "point" in space-time? "This woman needs her "beauty" rest *grin* ghoxox... is this right? *** Inviting Grannia to channel #thelema I think it may relate to a significant point of change (physics and/or evolutionary theory). *** Vesta has changed the topic on channel #thelema to Class in progress.../msg Ommadawn invite #thelema :) gee thanks... you are welcome ;) got to run.. 93/93 the all encompassing love...the purest form, etc *** Elight has left channel #thelema Great question Nox (re: the Vesta's definition of agape). V, purest in comparison to what? Debasing physical love, perhaps? :> hsi:yes :) * HsiWangMu ewwwwwwwwwwws. hhhmm.. Does agape include sex? (In the way that you see it, V) (or anyone for that matter) when i heard about agape, it was contrasted with eros Does it include S/M, for example? if sex is for a "higher" "spiritual" form, it may..i don't know..atht is why i asked (I'd like a transcript of this class. anyone keeping a log?) i am morton Om, I've heard it that way too. vesta: To my knowledge "agape" was always used as meaning a kind of love thy neighbor idea. This can be logically extended to the idea of the love of everything (i.e. a union with everything). *** Signoff: techmage (Error 0 occurred.) * Vesta gets her handy dandy Webster's so..in other words, Yoga? morton: yes, but I can't remeber who... vesta: yup :> * Ommadawn didn't know websters had greek... Doesn't 'love under will' sound like domination? 'Man on top, missionary-position thinking'? union with everything under will.. Why not 'will under love'? err...all he says was Agape;Love..bleuch! some help he is! well, given his definition of love, i interp. it to mean that you are in control of the situation why not through..? :) ok..i think we need then to define what Thelema is and what Agape is in this in this context that is that in merging the opposites, the will or desire of the mage is formost, rather than circumstance agape is a very big concept. long history of Christian, Hermetic usage. The Mass is associated with 'agapic feasts' which are also associated with orgies. If you define will as Crowley does, then it would seem that the statement would imply that one should try to seek union, but only under the ultimate consideration that it is your path (i.e. will). well, according to cparticle, thelema in modern greek means "want" hsi: seems appropriate :> I think that he uses agape all the time because of the gematria of the word. Love or whatever is Under WILL because will is the thing that makes for a magick. ok dr Let me restate the last thing. Will is what make things magical. I think that Crowley may be overly-focussed on control here, however. He talks about making all our actions 'subservient to the one great purpose' after finding our 'True Will'. Dr, excellent point. is it "overly"? isn't the goal of the mage to eliminate happenstance, to have control of the situation? true will...being our true path.. hsi: If you equate the concept of will with the Tao, then it makes sense.... Omm, I think that many people think of it this way, yes. (I think this is an over-emphasis on control. See human's futile attempts to 'control ' nature, inner and outer.) Nox, 'subservient to'? How? after all, isn't that why we do banishing, cast circle, to eliminate outside influence? *** Signoff: Morton (Leaving) *** CParticle (~v077qpmh@ubvmsa.cc.buffalo.edu) has joined channel #thelema 93 all Union might seem like a good idea, but nothing is always good in every situation (i.e. rape is not the best of all "unions"). It seems that if you are following the course of the universe, then you can not do wrong. Now finding out the course of the universe is the hard part. adn how you fit in? vesta: Exactly. It is important to unite with Pan, but it can only happen one step at a time, and it is important to know which steps to take. :( is it possible to know the will of the universe? it's hard enough to know *your* will... and if you do truly know your will, then it should be the same, should it not? assuming you are a part of the universe as above, so below? frater:PAN? omm: If I understand what you are saying, then I would agree. (at least on a theoretical level). i am saying that if you *truly* know yr will, it should also be the will of the universe pan... the thelemic deity that symbolizes the "all"... or the reflection of the all. but one should think globally, act locally, to use a cliche omm: I would agree with that. frater: reflection of all..sounds yesodic.. * mudslayer flops around. I notice that people talk alot about whether people are doing their true wills or not, then mention that it is damn difficult to know if someone is doing their true will (tw), but few presume that it is happening until shown otherwise. I think that very few people are really doing their True Will. Sure people are doing good. But in order to do your True Will you must have K&C/HGA and I don't think that happens very much. Dr, really? I didn't know that. Doing your True Will is somthing that happens after the Great Work is accomplished Yeah well.... I think we could spend hours talking about "Pan" and the "Night of Pan", so I'm just trying to give a quick def'n. *after*? goodness same here dr.i did not know that Sorry, y'all, I missed any talk about a 'point-event'. Anybody know what it is? Nox, great idea (quick defs :>)> (References where possible :>). (Or of course make appointments to speak about special tangents later. :>) The book of Lies talks a lot about these concepts... so does Liber 7. hsi: How's that :> Does everyone see what I mean about 'point-events'? Crowley seems to make the understnading of this concept key to an understanding of love and will. what is it? * Ommadawn is unclear about point events Letter C, paragraph 5. I don't. I don't know off hand. i understand where it is, but i don't understand what it is I get the impression he's going to define it later. I may even remember reading about it. It may relate to vectors. Physics taken to esotericism. An important item to remember for later discussion. The other topic Crowley brings up here is secrecy. point-event... isn't that a single "point" in space-time? "This woman needs her "beauty" rest *grin* ghoxox... is this right? I think it may relate to a significant point of change (physics and/or evolutionary theory). nox: i've never heard a physicist talk about a point event. ok..i am outta here.. Remember the Aim is Religion but the Method is Science. I found it. Philosophy of Whitehead. *** Signoff: Vesta (Love is the law! hhmm..what else can it be?) a particular phenomenon, regarding as the intersection in space-time of certain of the eternal objects. regarding s/b regarded could the point-event be a reference to Hadit? orb, likely a reference to both Good thought orbital I would have said poing but oh well... point (hadit) event (nuit) orb: He often uses it as such, though its not all it is. hsi: It would seem more useful to equate nuit with the sum of all the infinite possible point-events. yes, that is true Crowley says two things about secrecy here. 1) He thinks the rule of secrecy -9is important but that he 'published openly all the secrets'. 2) The exception to this rule is the 'ultimate secret of the O.T.O.', which is 'too dangerous to disclose'. I think his words in the last paragraph of Letter C are silly and meant to impress. *** Igraine (getkind@pnet.com) has joined channel #thelema remember he published _other peoples secrets_ not his though. There's some truth to them, but they are overly limited in regards what is 'dangerous' and what is 'only revealed within the Order'. I agree... though I think he really believed that people would not understand if he said openly he practiced sex magick (though why he thought they would be more receptive to "bloody sacrifice", I'll never know). Such 'secrets' or better, Mysteries, are revealed to those who attain to them, in or out of the O.T.O., unless you think he may be speaking of something esoteric here. Remember thatt he is comming from that point and tradition of the Secret Order. remember also that this was victorian era Dr, is that like representing a sort of 'orthodoxy'? It seems to me that he is placing a blind in favor of social magical orgs, so what you're all saying makes sense. Are we waiting for splitters? Ig, no, just shooting shit about Letter C. (love/will/point-event, secrecy/OTO). In a way but remember that the tradition of Masonic Orders was still strong. And that the orders ran the politics and economics of various and sundry places. Look at the Templars. it seems like AC's point about the 'safeguard' in the last paragraph is the important thing... the rest of the paragraph seems a like dramatics orb, I agree completely. Though I think that there is something esoteric and important to be said about the Black Brothers here. Not sure what it might be, however. * FraterNOX smiles should we go on to letter d? Also, I'm not sure what the difference between 'destroying oneself' as a Black Brother by {_'using this secret'... ...and 'destroying oneself' by crossing the Abyss. I'll bet that there is a subtle difference. I'm back, Omma! Omma, I never got your invite. HsiWangMu invited me. *** Signoff by ladyroo detected Nox, if nobody else has anything to say I'm for moving on, sure. hsi: we should probably hold this discussion until his chapter on Black brothers... I think he explains his views on them there. :> One emphasis from C before we leave it, though. Nox, among other places, yes. (Liber Aleph, Liber Four) Emph: "A great deal of the confusion that arises in all these questions... ..., and grows constantly worse as fellow-students... talk them over - the blind leading the blind - is because they have no idea... of the necessity of defining their terms." Seems Crowley didn't really follow his own advice here. Where does this leave us in this study group? Well, not until his own good time. Leave us? Not sure what you mean, Nox. heheh Ahhhhhh, as for fellow-students that we are? :> I wonder what he would have said about us students having a "tea party" together? Or if he would not see it that way. :> I see. I think that Crowley's comment here is another shifty comment. He must know from study of philosophy that defining terms can become an endless affair. Can you explain further Nox. That we ask what he means by 'love' is precisely supportive of us as looking carefully. Nox, I think that tea-parties occur among 'scholars'. FraNOX, I don't think this class is what AC meant by a tea party, do you? Those who are here in order to take something into their lives to apply are not out to 'prove the correct view of the universe', but to ground these teachings in direct living. Whether or not through 'ceremonial magick'. dr: I was just refering to the fact that Crowley discourages (in this letter) students talking with one another. He thinks that it just causes problems. My own view is that he was exagerrating his views a bit to get his point across, since eve n he was in the OTO. Anywaym I don't really think this is what he meant by a "tea-party", I was just playing with what he had said earlier :> I got the impression that AC felt that Cara Soror might be looking for some kind of social outlet in the OTO hsi: I agree, and I'm actually glad we brought this up. I think its an important distinction to make. and he was trying to explain that the OTO is more serious an affair orb, 'Cara Soror' means 'Hello Sister'. :> Though I think that is a great {title for her. :> heehee, thanks for the clarification :) hsi: I guess Crowley is right when he says that one should be silly to learn serious things, and serious to learn silly things. according to cparticle, cara is greek for 'joy'. Cpart is greek, BTW omm: its also greek for "dear"... orb, what you said makes sense to me. Dear, yes. That was my understanding. A term of gratious greetings. Cara is Latin, if I'm not mistaken. <------ I'm not a linguist! :> I'm sorry, I'm falling asleep, I think I should probably go... I guess I'll see you all next week (at 10 EDT). sounds odd to mix greek and latin... soror is greek, is it not? In any case, I'm content to move on whenever anyone else is. * Ommadawn is ready to move on, also lets move then Cara means dear. I think that Frater and Soror are both Latin. My opinions are, however, very flimsy on languages. Ig, what language? as is mine... 93 93/93 Hasta Nox. looking at the context, "dear sister" makes sense Is someone logging this mess? Italian and probably Latin Right, Cara Mia. *** Signoff: FraterNOX (Leaving) A bunch of us seem to be. Letter D? * Ommadawn is logging, and igraine will fill in the gap when i got wasted Thanks Om. Ig. * Ommadawn will edit the log and make it available... much sooner than last wk I have little to say about D. I thought it was boring except for the mention of how this book came to be (52 letters of each, and only Crowley's get the print!). *** Signoff by FraterNOX detected where are these logs available Ommadawn? we have a mail list.. are you on it, Dr.? Crowley goes into a number of references of his own works, of course. Salesman that he is. :> i believe all of it is latin (carus = dear; frater = brother, friend; soror = sister) I believe so but the machine was down for internet mail so It mightnow have made it. * orbital looked them up in the latin dictionary thanks, orb for the record... Cara Soror, Care Frater? * Ommadawn has one question 93 93/93 all I've got to go. I have enjoyed it thou see you next week. what other names does "blue equinox" go by? Hasta Dr. hsi: not sure about the different forms Om, it seems that it also goes by _A Master of the Temple_ (according to letter D). *** Signoff: DrChronos (93 93/93) I'll look it up... if i was looking in the bookstore, which book am i looking for? Liber CLXV A Master of the Temple is a relatively short piece, surely not the whole "blue equinox"... hmm Achad's Magical Diary with commentary by Crowley Ahhhhhhhhhh, Blue Equinox must have contained it. Equinox III, Vol. 1? i agree that letter D does not have much to offer * Ommadawn looks.. nope, don't have that one yet *** Igraine (getkind@pnet.com) has joined channel #thelema I took the +i off. Thanks *** Inviting Bodazafa to channel #thelema People can come back if they like. See if it works better that way. join #forest #forest Igraine H getkind@pnet.com (Gerald Etkind) *** Bodazafa (TIM47@bos1f.delphi.com) has joined channel #thelema is FraNOX still here? > nox had to crash... Looks like Eq III:1 is not well-published (Blue Equinox) aside from the bulk. Any other comments about Letter D? tyagi, are you facilitating the class now, or is it over? He cases on Christianity a bit. orb, no facilitator. *** Bodazafa has left channel #thelema We're on until 9/12 Mu, if you please. :> yes, i wish i could see her letter to him re: his references to her "Christian" beliefs vesta also is indignant at the non-inclusion of her letters His mention of Christ as Mithras and Osiris etc. with 'no value for you' (her, presumably) ... are kind of weird given his adoration of his Word in other works. true It is the 'Dying God' thing he seems to be slighting. But this is nothing new. :> i think he's just trying to get her to break set with her Christian dogma orb, that is *precisely* what I was about to type. ;> ...in his own inimitable fashion (by upsetting her) :) He is engaging her directly. right Not trying to put 'the truth' into words. Thus the true loss of not having her side of hte conversation. exactly We'll probably lament that omission the entire book through. probably AC didn't bother to keep the letters... egotist :) I find it interesting that he mentions Steiner in the second paragraph. Om, there are many reasons for not keeping letters. I sometimes toss them for lack of confidence-breach. Sometimes because my response 'sufficiently summarizes' the inquiry. yes, but given his intent of doing this series, it'd have made sense to keep them :> Egotism, you're right. :> hsi, can you explain his reference to Steiner? *** Bodazafa (TIM47@bos1f.delphi.com) has joined channel #thelema orb, no I can't. mu: i've seen yr responses, and i agree. AC doesn't hav yr style, howver I'm not familiar with his work. nor am I was he a Mason? * Ommadawn isn't familiar with steiner either So I can't place what he's referncing. Something about death and Masonry. Steiner was an occultist, if I remember my readings. Don't remember much more than that. Just a sec. he also started a series of schools for kids, too My Abyss says he was a sort of 'Renaissance Man', and perhaps started the 'Waldorf Schools'. Magician, philosopher, occultist. thank you for the info when i went to buy _The Complete Golden Dawn System of Magick_, the owner of the bookstore tried to talk me into buying Steiner's _Foundations of Esotericism_ instead... Om, I've heard he is good reading, but it may be a matter of taste. the steiner book looked interesting, but haven't had the chance to revisit it My impression is that Steiner may be more into Newage, Spiritualism and Rosicrucianism. we still on letter D? let's go on. (to Letter E) not much time left according to schedule Yes, let's get to E before we stop. It's short. ok i have a question... Is this a game of sorts I'm somewhat confused by the last parens statements. In my copy it isn't clear if this is something that Crowley wrote or is a note by Regardie. do we know what soror's proposed motto was? was it Fiat Yod, or was this just a gematriacal name that Crowley came up with? If Crowley wrote it it appears he refers to 'Baphomet X~ OTO' as if another person. Seems like Crowley is choosing the motto FIAT YOD. * orbital is wondering what motto she actually proposed :< I think it might be a good idea to continue with E next time. i agree i also agree This is more complicated than we might have time for here (seeing that it is now 2103 :>). i think that choosing motto is not necessarily a trivial discussion Om, is there a 'closing' too? :> i thought we said we'd do something like i absolutely agree, omna "Love is the law, love under will" * HsiWangMu knocks six times and then nine times. Love is the law, love under will! thank you all Love is the law orbital: "I Will Become" was the proposed motto ah, thank you, ig * orbital enters the silence * Ommadawn prepares to close the log... *** Signoff: orbital (Leaving) IRC Log ended *** Thu Apr 21 00:03