From sarkis@luna.cas.usf.edu Sun Oct 23 14:43:04 1994 Date: Mon, 2 May 1994 15:14:45 -0400 (EDT) From: "Marianne Sarkis (ANT)" To: 002134r@dragon.acadiau.ca Subject: Thelema Log 4/13/94, Letters A-C * Ommadawn starts a log How far has everyone read? * Ommadawn read the first 5 letters (a-e) this evening... igraine... techmage? aye? I haven't read it yet. I'll read it soon. Haven't had time. tech: How far have you read? igr: Do you have a copy you can look at during class? Well, I got them from slopoke.???.whatever and never unarchived them. It may take a couple of minutes to unarchive and more time to print (which was what I had planned to do) *** CParticle (~v077qpmh@ubvmsa.cc.buffalo.edu) has joined channel #thelema I really just skimmed through it...I'm not a thelemite per se...just a student of Crowley's (via chaos magick) Hang on a minute or three, OK? I'll shell out, open them and start printing. got closer this time what do I type to receive it * firehorse doesnt have a spirit that is already private property ok... techmage do you have a copy? but I am logging this and going to print it out and refer to it as I read the book yes I have several friends in OTO here in DAllas cparticle: Don't worry about it now, ommadawn says he can Dcc or mail it. ok tech: Cool... invite them along if they want to come to a meeting. one is on his way i already mailed it to cparticle but MAKE SURE THEY READ IF THEY COME. :> assuming he can get through the tserver what is a "tserver"? I didn't receive anything wait brb let me check terminal server...he doesn't have a local irc client so he telnets to one in florida Maybe next time we should tell people that we are starting at 9:30. That way we will start at 10:00! :> tech: can any use that link? heh tech: oh ok *** CParticle (~v077qpmh@ubvmsa.cc.buffalo.edu) has joined channel #thelema yeah...if you're in dallas it's a local call nope it sounds like a realistic plan... remember, this is the first one... oh, but can't you telnet to it? omm: Is vesta definitely coming? *** DrChronos (TGOYETT@bos1f.delphi.com) has joined channel #Thelema you can telnet to the irc server...it's cybernet.cse.fau.edu...or IP is 131.91.80.79 I thought she was... but she DID say not to wait for her.... tech: is there a username i use or are you talking about doing irc "raw" *** shakti (shakti@access.netaxs.com) has joined channel #thelema 93 shakti 93/93 all frater: i think we should start... 93 shakti you can log in as new and be validated within like 5 days it's not a raw server 93 shakti * Ommadawn makes a note... I think that I agree. 93! 2 all. DrChronos: Have you gotten a chance to read? If so, how far did you get? 93/93 Ok, lets start. First I want to know if anyone has any general questions about what is going on. I've read Maigick without tears a couple of three times already so yes I"m ready. drchronos: I have a lag for you of 110 seconds... Can I ask how this started? How did you find out about each other. From alt.magick or #pagsn? opps pagsn = pagan i know all these folks from #wicca and #wicca101 All right, This will probably be a weekly thing (if people have problems with this time, we'll talk about it after class), but we need everyone to try to read what is assigned (to the best of their ability). Obviously, if its a choice of not c oming or not reading, then just come, but if everyone does that, this group won't get anywhere. how much are we gonna cover per week? Today, I wanted people to read Regardie's prologue, letters A-H, and Chapters 1-5. I wasn't sure how much we would cover, so I wanted to have too much instead of too little. I'll cover it after class and refer to the log I'm keeping for relative points * Ommadawn read letters a-d... I only have this one server that I can get to. How do you know its 110 seconds? next week I shall endeavor to read the material though (just found out about this today) My goal is to try and get a sense of our pace and then assign chapters accordingly. I would rather go slow and make sure we cover everything, than to speed through the chapters. DrChronos try /server excalibur.mlb.semi.harris.com It seems to be a good server:> i think that the t intro letters might be a good assignment for next time... what are the goals of this class? *** CParticle (~v077qpmh@ubvmsa.cc.buffalo.edu) has joined channel #thelema 93 93 The general goals will be to learn about Ceremonial Magick from one of the best books on the subject... Magick in Theory and Practice. To do this, there are some people who are new to Crowley and need the background, so we will work our way up to it. Not to mention, Magick without Tears is an excellent book in its own right. *** strops (strops@netcom8.netcom.com) has joined channel #thelema Tim? yes? 93!!! The general idea now is to read this book, then Eight Lectures on Yoga, then Book 4 (parts 1 and 2), and finally Magick in Theory and Practice. how long do you expect that will take? *** strops is now known as FraterMon Then we can go on from there. This list of books is subject to change, but its a good start. *** FraterMon is now known as Fra erg *** Fra is now known as FraMonk 93 FraMonk there we go... FraMonk is my thelemic friend I was telling you about This should take quite a while. Maybe a year and a half or so (just a guess) good evening and 93!, 93 Frater Monk. I'm glad to have you here. how can I get there without an account? 93 framonk drChronos just type "/server excalibur.mlb.semi.harris.com" Thanx Fra. N. I hear you peeps are talking about T & P! frater monk: Have you read Magick without Tears and/or do you have a copy? btw, techmage...this thing doesn't scroll... keeps printing on one line... hmmm...try exiting and then setenv TERM vt52 from the netcom prompt and then change your term in terminate k.... brb My role will be to essentially facilite discussion. I will keep things going and I will have a list of questions to ask about each letter. Some of these will be basic points and others will be more advanced. Anyone can feel free to ask a quest ion at any time though. This might sound silly, but maybe we'll use the /me command to have people type "/me raises his/her hand". Then I will call on you and you can speak. This way, we won't step on each other's toes. How does this sound? sounds good good keep a sense of loose order we could moderate if you wanted... *** FraMonk (strops@netcom8.netcom.com) has joined channel #thelema ah ha...much better any better? heh *** Vesta (sarkis@luna.cas.usf.edu) has joined channel #Thelema ok.... Theory and Practice? 93 93 Vesta omm: I think this might be easier, but I'm not sure, what do you think? 93 vesta 93 Vesta Magick w/o Tears 93 :) framonk: No Magick without tears.... actually... I haven't looked at Magick w/o tears... Vesta: You just missed my wonderful intro.... *** DrChronos (~TGOYETT@192.80.63.4) has joined channel #Thelema ok..i have a copy of the first few chapters if anyone needs a DCC I've ftp'd it if you want it, monk i guess i like this way... don't think there are that many ppl who are gonna babble too much I mean I've skimmmed thru it... but... Framonk: Well get a copy next to you for this class, and try to read it for next class. framonk: not the whole thing, just what is assigned. kewlness... what does it this part cover? just like a real class For those who just appeared, I'm going to moderate this channel by having people type "/me raises his/her hand" when they want to speak and I'll call on them. I may be familiar from reading other Crowley material... all right lets begin... CLASS OPEN YOU TEXT BOOKS TO LETTER A... :> i'm in cameron... right next to base... ~auth catra 2 letter 1? no letter A... it should be in the intro. page 1 got it :) Before I start on this, has anyone read the preface by Regardie... Its not in the FTP version, but it is in the printed book. i have Yes <-- possibly * Ommadawn hasn't read it... *** LadyRoo (KSWALLAC@indyvax.iupui.edu) has joined channel #thelema Great... then I'll ask one or two questions about that before beginning... nope...sure haven't MM all * techmage shrugs nope haven't read it * Ommadawn hasn't read it... is this going to be moderated>? On page xxviii Regardie talks about editing the letters, What do you all think about this fact? * FraMonk raises his hand Was it necessary to get rid of some of Crowley's ramblings or was this uncalled for on Regardie's part? * FraterNOX reminds people to "raise their hands" is they have something to say> framonk... pardon if I'm mistaken...if I.R. edited out ramblings...isn't it possible that something important was left out? saying that it isn't I.R.'s position to say what is and isn't important to print? That was my general feeling. I don't know how many of you know this, but regardie's editing of Crowley's commentarries on the Book of the Law (entitled The Law is for All), is 25% smaller then it should be. Much of Crowley is obscure... it's hard to figure out what is and isn't pertinent That is a HUGE editing job. * FraMonk puts down his hand... 8') Does anyone else have any comments? In the electronic version of the commentarys bill typed in much more than was in the Law is for all. * LadyRoo gives a parting wave to all as she hurriedly tries to escape the lab before they lock her in...MP and *hugs* also there is a motta commentary. Good question, I haven't looked at them... tell me where they are and I'll check for next class (I have a copy of the original). * techmage quietly slips out for the restroom leaving his log on "I have exercised great caution and deliberation in the editing, if only because I am fully aware of the fanatical attitude of some Crowley disciples. Every word that he wrote must have been endowed with some divine quality anxd must not be tampered with- it is quite irrational. DrChronos: unfortunaly that is worse then the Regardie version. Crowley himself would have been the first to admit this, though he has often admitted that he was incapable of editiong his own material. Yup thats where the Apes of Thoth fit in. The only thing thing to ever isue from his pen which he demanded must never bve edited was a group of slect writings called The Holy Books, and above all, The Book of the Law. "Change not so much as a letter..." IR My question is just Regardie (someone who proclaims LOUDLY not to be a thelemite) is able to decide on his own what each of us will find important or not imprtant in Crowley's material. well, from the intro it seems that he highly respected the letters and the task at hand..and i think since no one else thought that it would be a good partaking, he decided to do it...but now i am starting to speculate, and i will quit th at I feel that I.R. was unjustified in the editing Well, I just wanted to bring it up so that people are aware of it. If there is no objection I'll now move on to letter A. well, he did the best he could, though the book is still missing the other side---the student's. ok..no problem Please try to remember to "raise your hand". I know it sounds silly, but it is the only way that we can know that people still want to say something. I don't want to cut anyone off. * Igraine raises her hand Igraine... This has nothing to do with the discussion, except on the periphery: I'm lagged from my own computer while this stuff prints out. I have a partial print out, but if I ask a question on something asked a few *minutes before, I ask your indulgenc e and beg your pardon no prob * FraMonk nods in understanding it is ok Igraine..:) thank you In letter A, What does Crowley say is his "personal position" in relation to the student? ok..Let the class begin! :) page 1 fello-sufferer...i like that :) * techmage slips quietly into his seat *** mudslayer (DSSJSZA@oak.grove.iup.edu) has joined channel #thelema :) * Ommadawn liked the title of "fellow sufferer" also.. he states quite firmly that he is not a teacher... What do people think about that? Not something most ego-manics tend to say.... * FraMonk raises his hand framonk * Moth intends to go buy a Pink Floyd record tomorrow. * USViking offers to do damn-near-anything for (to?) moonowl for a ticket. ;) only $40 WHich one should I get? * Ommadawn is almost sick of it... * Catra damns the lag. Moth: the wall * moonowl laughs moonowl: what date? (and where? ) USV, I sorta have one * Tovar is quite fond of Pink Floyd. * USViking loves the Floyd. moonowl...where are you? Philly. :) btw: which ones Pink? USV: your ticket would be a seat between two college girls... unisus: eheheheh I almost said that. :) moonowl: ya-hoo! :) * Catra has a friend who adores floyd moonowl: what's the date of the show, and where? (Philly?) * Catra just thinks that floyd is okay. * unisus hifives johon! * johan grins sorry for the delay.... I AGREE>>> IT sounds very uncharacteristic for A.C. to say * Catra giggles at moth * USViking thinks this could be an interesting idea. :) * Catra gigglepurrs at usviking yet in a way its not... its closer to the truth... That is my point.... is it uncharacteristic, or are we seeing a side of Crowley that most of his oppenents like to ignore? sorry.. thought you were finished... for some reason the first time i read that, it looked like "giggleburps". heh * moonowl laughs Maybe i've had too much coffee. could be It's possible we're seeing the same side of him as we always have.. the truthful one NEVER!!!!! * Catra misses her ircrc which is on her OTHER account which no longer has A CLIENT WORTH SHIT\ sorry... * unisus took 5 tylenol and her headache is just starting to go away. :( * Fantam wonders what client Castra has. moonowl: when is the Floyd show? * FraterNOX notes that maybe we should have people "put down their hand" when they are finished. Catra even. um... * johan shakes his head and makes that "yadadadadaaa" sound. What was i thinking, sis? How can someone have too much coffee? Sometime in the first week of June..I forget I mean, I haven't learned much from Crowley, per se... More like I've had stuff I already knew pointed out to me hehehehe :) ... good idea... 2.something, this one is * FraMonk putting down his hand unisus: why the headache? * Ommadawn is seeing them may 12 at clemson university June 1994 S M Tu W Th F S 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 my regular is vms1.7.6 * techmage raises his hand techmage... just a comment to Fra. Monk's last point...isn't that what most "teachers" of "mystic" matters do...least that's how I've always seen it... * techmage puts his hand down me raises his hand that is how I've always seen it... a "true" teacher does not claim to be. They are always learning, so they are always a students. framonk... ooops.. * FraMonk puts his hand down Does anyone else have any comments? * DrChronos:#Thelema raises hand DrChronos... i am muffled..:) ok... I'll move on... * techmage chuckle * techmage adds an "s" * Vesta raises her hand vesta... considering that some of us are kinda limited in time for beinmg here...can we go through the differnt letters and then open the floor for questions later on? I just don't want to turn this into something where I spout off for 10 minutes, and then I allow poeple to ask questions... what does everyone else think? since she's gone I think the question is moot *** DrChronos (TGOYETT@bos1f.delphi.com) has joined channel #Thelema 93 Dr omm: What do you think? * FraMonk agrees with Fra. Nox i think it'd save less time in lag if you spoke & opened it up for questions... *** prospero (scribe@cyberspace.com) has joined channel #thelema 93 prospero 93! it seems that we're waiting a long time for questions to happen... difficult to keep focused 93 prospero DWTW 93! true.. but that's my opinion... whats the subject * Igraine is flexible on this point. All right, I'll try that way for awhile, but if people do not like it, just speak up. * CParticle is indifewrent lets talk about alchemy ok..sounds good.. study group on Magick w/o Tears, Prosp *** Mode change "+m" on channel #thelema by FraterNOX I have moderated the channel.. if you have any questions just send them to me "/msg fraternox (message)" Since this is the first class we'll try this. This way we can decide which way is best. I'll open things up for general questions after presenting each letter. ok... letter A is essententall Crowley's intro for a new student. Beyond "teaching" the student about calling him teacher, he also gives some preliminary practices. He states the a good beginning for "dedication of all that one is and all one has to the great work" is to do the daily adorations and saying will... These are necessary to focus one's will (on a daily basis) on the great work. The sun is a symbol of the great work since it is a union of the male and the female, the microcosm and the macrocosm, and other such dualities. (Look at its alchemi cal symbol to understand this. A point inside of a circle). *** Vesta (sarkis@luna.cas.usf.edu) has joined channel #Thelema By doing four daily adorations, you are constantly keepinmg your mind in tune with the great work. Saying will before each meal also has this effect. It affirms at every meal that people only eat in order to fulfill the great work. This type of practice is the best introduction for a new student. *** Mode change "-m" on channel #thelema by FraterNOX Now, does anyone have any questions about letter a? * CParticle raises hand cparticle If I may ask what is the great work good question * Ommadawn wonders how serious AC was about jumping in front of lorries to do ritual The great work is the union all dualities (generally given as the union of the microcosm with the macrocosm). omm: maybe only when he was on cocaine :> * techmage chuckles Are there any other questions? *** Fantam (smthor01@msuacad.morehead-st.edu) has joined channel #thelema but seriously... are we supposed to do this in the middle of the office? hey all! 93 fantam..class is in session you can do it by yourself, right? * Fantam did not mean to interupt a class.... * DrChronos ! (comment) I think Crowley is trying to make a point, but as for that, he later says that isn't necessary. He states that... * techmage raises hand * Ommadawn thinks that intoning wouldn't cut it in his workplace... He feels that it might also not be in your best interest to accomplish the great work to have everone think you are crazy... but it should be possible to say it to yourself, or go to the bathroom and do it, or so on. There are many ways to get around this without having to seem eccentric. *** FraterNOX has changed the topic on channel #thelema to Magick Without Tears: Class in progress fortunately, my co workers are comfortable with my beliefs * Ommadawn puts his hand back down... I seem to have always been able to do it (at least when I remember) and no one (or at least no one new) thinks I'm nuts. I generally just say it too myself, and visulaize myself in the godform. Are there any other questions? when is the next class? pro: we will deal with that after class:> I think all he's really trying to do here is instill a basica sense of discipline necessary for the study and practice of magick...hermetics have the l.b.r.p several times a day...chaoists have the visualization of the chaosphere, etc. * DrChronos ? I think nbext week same time (10:00), but I want to ask everyone. *** Fantam has left channel #thelema tech: This is true, but I think this is before even the L.B.R.P. Crowley also reccomends that it be done twice a day. It is clear that this woman has never studying anything about magick before. She seems to have been a co-mason, who heard of Crowley from someone else. This is why he is starting with the basics of the basics. makes sense drchronos... /msg techmage ok.... I'll send you the coding standard and the libraries... and the flocharts in PCX format sorry * techmage blushes I wanted to ask iff anyone else felt the way that AC says that he had difficulties with chapter 3 of al? yup..and he did mentioned that in one of the letters only at first I don't think I had any problem with it i did I think maybe Crowley had more problems then most people because he was an avowed Buddhist at the time. I was saying that AC said that he had trouble he called it "antipathetic" with chapter Three of AL. I was wondering if anyone else has that problem. well as I recall hearing, Crowley had a problem with Liber Al itself for several years...took him a long time to accept its validity and publish it I still have problmes with the "Be upon them .." trip in the book sometimes. I can understand why he says it but I still have trouple with it all very Martial to me. I think there are parts which definitely feel uncomfortable, but they definitely make sense since I know that Horus id the avenger. oh yes. I don't want to comment too much on Liber Al, partly for personal reasons, and partly because I think we should continue with MWT.... i agree * FraMonk nods in agreement Does anyone mind if I go on to letter B? no nope please do *** Mode change "+m" on channel #thelema by FraterNOX All right, Crowley starts off this letter with an admonisment. He says he understands the student's sickness, but he informs her that there used to be rule about not taking too long to join the A.A. once asked. He intelligently staes that not everyone can live up to these high expectations so he has made them more lax... The theory was that if it was the person's time to be in the A.A., then they would need no time to make up their mind. He later realized that even if this were true, some people will still get things out of being a member of the A.A. now, even if they will not accomplish the great work in this life. He also goes on to talk about the fact that "all life is conflict". This goes back to his much celebrated IAO formula. To advance in any stage of your life you must go from a stage of steady growth (I-isis), to a stage where you are challenged /destroyed (A- Apophis), and then return to a stage muchg higher then the first (O- osirus, the resurrected god). This is the only way to advance in life. Stability is only accomplished through change. He ends the chapter with the comment that all true and serious orders ask for a vow of poverty from their members. The only reason the A.A. does not do this is because it is seen as more beneficial for all mankind, if the magician stays bound up in the affairs of humans. It is harder, but better for humanity. As a note, this is a common arguement Mahayanan Buddhists given against their hermitlike brethremn, the theravaden. *** Mode change "-m" on channel #thelema by FraterNOX Any questions? comments... * techmage raises his paw 93 all! DWTW techmage... * Ommadawn wonders how much later will this be going on? one question and a comment...question is on the Great Work...is it analogous to the hermetic great work (that is knowledge and conversation with HGA)? I know next to nothing about A.A. techmage: the A.:A.: is an hermetic order... in fact it is Crowley's "rectification" of the old G:.D:. system. Knowledge and conversation takes place at Tipareth, full union takes place at Kether. Does that help? so the Great Work is the same...only phrased differently ah...yes K& C is a stage in the great work. Nite all 93/93. See you next week 93 K&C? ok...thanks for clearing that up Knowledge and Conversation with the Holy Guardian Angel... often just called K&C with the H.G.A. 5=6 what is HGA Holy Guardian Angel THANKS Maybe we should call it quits for the night, and assume our slow start is due to this being our first class...